The Navy can't seem to find it. Maybe that alleged Navy report got filed away somewhere with George Bush's National Guard proof of attendance records, and lost forever. I appreciate your points as expressed. Yes I do believe it constituted genocide. I think the wanton killing of million persons with indiscriminate high altitude bombing, the massacres at My Lai and Tiger Force, the search and destroy operations, the use of WMD such as napalm, and Agent Orange, the deliberate carpet bombing of cities such as Hanoi and Haiphong during the Christmas Bombings of , the Gestapo-like Phoenix Program, the concentration camps of the Strategic Hamlet Program and the entire Vietnamization efforts of President Nixon and Secretary Kissinger were acts of racial cleansing that approximate the genocide in Cambodia and Rwanda and Armenia.
Perhaps unfairly, I could never vote for a president who served in Vietnam. If she were to renounce the war and not use it as a pretext for heroism, then possibly so. Vietnam was equivalent to the Nazis, to the Stalinist collectivization schemes and is a shame and a disgrace that frankly this nation will have to bear and eventually be held accountable to. Genocidal war? Do you mean when, after American and other Free World forces withdrew, and the Republic of Vietnam and Cambodia fell to a massive, tank-heavy, conventional, cross-border invasions — not a popular uprising - in ?
I hope you do, as it was not the policy of the US and its allies to eliminate the Vietnamese or other groups that populated Cambodia and what was the Republic of Vietnam. Americans guilty of atrocities were tried by our own military. I do not know of any Democrats who place sufficient importance on defense. It at best takes second place to redistribution of wealth schemes to please their varied constituencies As for Mr.
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For the illumination of those who may not be aware these are the name of the women who perished in this genocidal war. It is amusing that the Democrats attempted to persuade Mr Nader not to run for president even though their policies are so similar to the Republicans. Mr Nader represents, with Dr. Dean out and Congressperson Kucinich lagging, the only peace candidate for this election. I do see your points and I'll defer; you have clearly studied the matter far more extensively than I have. I was speaking only from personal experience and personal perception.
Nevertheless, like you I have always considered the military an excellent place for men and women of all colors to reach or discover their potential. As an aside, your comment about a "poor white kid from Arkansas" reminded me of Wesley Clark. He is the veteran I was hoping Democrats would back as I did in the Tennessee primary. As a product of the revamped U. Army of the s and s, one that has kicked ass around the globe, I am bothered by Kerry's s anti-war message, however understandable his sentiments may have been at the time. Today, in the wake of successful military operations in the Middle East, Kerry's past views seems to lack cogency.
A CINC understands that when soldiers are ordered to fight some of them die. I dont think that Bush understands the concept. Kuchinich in proudtobeaburdenonsociety. Yes, there were. I believe eight female service members died in Vietnam. However, the circumstances of their deaths and the positions they held all were nurses do not indicate they were put at greater risk "ask to die" because of their sex. I think the broader question is flawed. I am sorry, it looks like I was not as clear as I had intended to be.
The point was not made inadvertently. I was aware that during the Vietnam War, the Army's and other services' officer recruitment criteria produced an officer corps that was overwhelmingly white. My point was that if taken as groups, that which sustained the largest per capita loss were white college graduate males from middle class families. But that was only the minor point. In the military, that does not mean establishing quotas or lowering standards. If you want officers with more diverse backgrounds, you send recruiters to where you will find them.
In the days of conscription, the services relied on fewer recruiters because of the influence of the draft on recruitment. Also, you increase the minority representation in the officer corps by establishing ROTC detachments in "historically black colleges," or in Puerto Rico, etc. It is really an Action, and it is Affirmative, designed to create an Equal Opportunity, not just replace it with discrimination against a different group. And the result, a better-trained force with decisions made without any latent or blatant racism, or the effects of residual racism, making its effect.
For instance, because of any number of factors, the Army saw that a substantial number black first term soldiers had lower scores on the ASVAB than would predict the ability to be selected for promotion, training schools, assignments, re-enlistment, etc. The school terms coincided with unit training cycles so that readiness training was not affected. As a result, the promotion, selection, retention rates improved to those proportions you would expect, "with all things being equal," because the applicants were better qualified, and better soldiers after all.
AND, their commanders sent anyone who fell in the criteria, regardless of race or ethnic background. Therefore, the poor white kid from the Ozarks of Arkansas who was the product of a substandard public school education could take advantage of it, as could the poor black kid from South East District of Columbia. Both had an Equal Opportunity to compete with the kid who happened to attend a better school system. Having grown up in a military family, served in the infantry for years myself, and speaking with many soldiers with whom I served who fought in Vietnam, and even more former soldiers who did, I also agree with you.
When speaking with most Vietnam Vets, most seem to respond to comments that the US "lost" the war in Vietnam by saying "we didn't lose, we left. Likewise, they cite the "anti-war" movement and other Communist sympathizers , for pro-longing the war by encouraging the enemy not to negotiate, as they knew they couldn't win the fight, and the slanted media coverage, in duping enough Americans at home to believe the price of "peace" was worth abandoning the people of the Republic of Vietnam and Cambodia. The military has certainly made great strides in racial integration, but not always in equal opportunity.
As the data presented by Williams and Livingston reveals inadvertently to them no doubt , junior officers and chopper pilots were mostly white during the Vietnam War. While the enlisted ranks reflected the nation's racial make-up, the officer corps and speciality positions--pilots--remained predominately a white man's domain.
Thus, there is some merit in Kerry's criticism on this matter. As a white army platoon leader in the early s, several of my black soldiers complained, good-naturedly mind you, that it was still a white man's army. By that they meant that most officers were white as they definitely are and that it was harder for black officers to get promoted which I disagree with.
But while things are better today, it must have been hard for black officers to make a career in the Vietnam period. I recall stories from my battalion commander, a black officer, of how difficult life for him in the service was in the s, of how out of place he seemed at times. Anyway, I can see Kerry's point about racism in the armed forces, without over-reacting to it or seeing it as a condemnation of the military as an honorable profession.
The report Kerry keeps citing there was thoroughly discredited. Abuses did occur in Viet Nam, but the Winter Soldier Investigation Report was dummied up by the anti-war movement, and contained interviews with "vets" who had never served, much less served in Viet Nam. William Livingston "Although I realize it isn't going to happen nonetheless IMO serving in the armed forces should be a mandatory requirement to have the franchise to vote.
And I'm looking forward with favor to a return of conscription, but conscription with no exemption for college students". Sorry mate me thinks your wrong there. I disagree with Charlie Rangel on this issue as well. I'm glad you are happy with a possible return to conscription. If you have not, invest your son if he is not too old now, not mine. Between my sons two Grandfathers and myself we have over 60 years of military service.
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I did mine so my son, any yours for that matter do not have to spend time in the military. While Mr. Moshe refutes this point rather handely I would like to add my two cents. Richard Nixion delayed the war simply because he wanted peace with honor while the men of our generation were dying. All the communications I've seen posted on the internet by my fellow Viet-Nam War veterans have been hostile toward him, some extremely hostile". Well you have now. Evidently you did not pay attention to the couple of weeks prior to the Iowa Caucus'. Almost all the veterans supporting Kerry were Vietnam Vets, to include members of his Swift Boat crew.
Got a couple mad at me for supporting Dennis Kuchinich and not Kerry. If Kerry gets the Democratic nomination he will have my support. Our Brothers and Sisters who vent their hostility toward Kerry have the right to express their opinion. The same right I exercise to vent my hostility that George Bush has the same discharge I have and cannot account for his time, while I can account for 22 years, 2 months and 26 days.
In the age of Photoshop, no photo can be believed. Livingston wrote: "The back-stabbing ninny posed proudly for a widely distributed anti-war pro-Communist photo of him sitting beneath a North Viet Communist flag.
Sampley eventually admitted on his site that he had concocted it, and has now seemed to have removed it from the from his anti-Kerry site altogether I don't know if he's put it elsewhere. The fact that it has been circulated and remembered like the fake photo of Kerry and Jane Fonda sharing a podium is the unfortunate success of such propaganda. This is all too typical of the "win-at-any-cost" quasi-religious blindness of the right-wing, and indicative of the truly slime-laden campaign we're going to see coming from them.
I agree with Ms. DePinto that Bush's alleged absences from the Alabama Air National Guard were not due to ideological opposition to the war. It was probably due to his interest in going to Harvard and pursuing a career that would not be distracted by military service. My point is the relationship of Kerry's and the DNC raising this issue, that was raised over Bush's pre-presidential political career. It is Kerry's hypocrisy as an antiwar now hawk approach to Vietnam that I find egregious. For a dove to now criticize anyone who avoided any type of military service is hard to reconcile.
So there are two issues it seems to be: 1 The nature of Bush's last year in the Guard. For me it shows that a Dean, a Kucinich and a Nader would have been a true alternative in finding a path to peace and avoiding the murderous adventures of preemption and anti-Islamic rage. I am curious if Bush ever took a stand on the Viet Nam war, either for or against. Bush said on Meet the Press that he supported the Vietnam War but did not like the fact that politicians in Washington were making decisions that should have been in the hands of the military command. This is why he is a hypocrite.
If he had been morally opposed to the war, and then either refused to serve or joined the Guard for that reason, I would respect him too.
But his actions were inconsistent with his ststed support for the war. I support anyone who avoided service in that war because it was genocide. It was one less person to murder Vietnamese. I would more harshly judge a killer who goes to Vietnam--it wasn't courage, it was genocide--than one who did not damage or destroy another country's property or people.
I can tell you this, during that war both V V A W and civilian doves were hardly running around "outing" non-active duty personnel who were missing meetings. We were trying to end the war and could careless about military service--or to be more precise those who avoided it. We did not care if it were due to ideology or fear, Kerry and others wanted the war to end--pure and simple. Now the hypocrite is running as this macho war killer who got all these medals in this war and is outing those who did not attend all their meetings. Gee, I wonder if this has to do with a perception it would garner votes for a presidential election.
Not mine, I will tell you that!! I won't vote for him due to this venality. I won't vote for Bush either but if Kerry does not stop this prowar hypocrisy, maybe I will out of spite. If he was for the war and avoided the danger of being sent to Viet Nam by hiding out in the National Guard, I would have less respect for him. If he was against the war and chose to hide out in the Guard rather than throw his life away in a useless war and take part in the slaughter then I would have more respect for him.
If he had the courage go to war, come to believe it wrong, and return to fight against it's continuation like Kerry, I would have a whole lot of respect for him. Heck, I would probably be glad in that the war machine was having some creaky spots in it. Bush did not serve in Vietnam and your question assumes that Kerry hates hated the whole of the United States military. No where does Kerry suggest this.
The issues are separate and unrelated. Hey, you soldiers are baby killers and fighting in an imperialistic war and put down your arms and quit.
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Oh, and you reservists and national guard units make sure you never miss a meeting and keep going up all your obligations even if I hate the war going on. Did I misunderstand? In any event, Kerry and others are able to separate the 2. Finally on this matter and I am not an expert on this topic but am merely thinking on the run.
All I know is if I hated a war and construed it as immoral and racist, I could care less if some reservists or guard personnel were missing meetings. Kerry seems to merely try to score points on a topic that is utterly irrelevant to the issues of war and peace today. I meant serving "during Vietnam" and my last sentence shoudl read. Oh, and you reservists and national guard units make sure you never miss a meeting and maintain all your commitments even if I hate the war going on.
But Roesler points are still so very valid and apt. The issue is not WHY Bush deserted his unit or whether he was antiwar or not. The point is why should Kerry criticize ANYONE who served in Vietnam for avoiding his or her military service, regardless of the record, if the service was related no matter how remotely to an immoral war. I think one would be hard pressed to separate so purely a denunciation of a war, and denounce a person who avoided serving even occasionally in a unit DURING the war.
Driscoll, -- "How can Kerry blast Bush for not doing his National Guard duty in a war that he called immoral and criminal. How can this not be hypocrisy. Indeed, he said that he understands perfectly why people would want to get out of going… which Bush did by entering the National guard. The problem is that if the accusations are true , Bush disappeared for a time when he was supposed to be on duty.
Bush was at no risk of being sent to Vietnam by joining the National Guard. This issue is not, contrary to what some believe, whether or not Bush was right to avoid going to Vietnam. The issue is whether Bush was right to skip some of the service he DID sign up for if indeed, the accusations are true.
Livingston-- Certainly you can speak with more experience than I; I am too young to have experienced the Vietnam era with any sort of awareness, and my military service is only a decade old. I think recent studies regarding casualty rates and racial categories are important, and I hope that they continue to inform our perceptions of Vietnam as they continue to evolve.
It's a wonderful historical source in that regard--how we interpret war and soldiers in war speaks a great deal as to how we interpret our society as a whole. In this sense, war is eminently political, as it is in may ways an extension of our mores and society--at least in the stated aims for a conflict. On a personal note, as I close, you and your fellow veterans have my utmost respect. I think our larger society has a great deal to learn from the military when it comes to race and "racial issues," as I've experienced firsthand.
I've found the discussion on this thread most enlightening, and it has done much to help me organize my thoughts on the subject. Regards, Kevin Gannon. I see a great deal of hypocrisy. How can Kerry blast Bush for not doing his National Guard duty in a war that he called immoral and criminal. Give me a break and thanks MR Roesler for your courage and conviction on many of these posts. You fail to mention what your problem with the VVA is? All the communications I've seen posted on the internet by my fellow Viet-Nam War veterans have been hostile toward him, some extremely hostile.
Despite what you may think of him, many Veterans actively support his candidacy. No one who has served with Kerry, to the best of my knowledge and this may change- who knows? This, of course, is an absurdity. Anti-War groups were a minority and had garnered no mass support until the Tet-Offensive, when the public had realized that they had been lied to. To suggest that the Viet Cong somehow would have given up without the support of American liberals is simply demonstrating the same misunderstanding of the enemy that the leaders who started the war had.
It is equally amusing to see Right-wingers ignore the glaring reality that this is the first administration since WWII in which no one on the ticket fought in a war. They then ignore or dismiss any challenge to their own partisan favorites, while boldly making inflammatory generalizations about Democrats who have served in the military, both during war time, and during peacetime.
Army from , during which time he fought in Korea and was awarded the Purple Heart and Bronze Star. It is endlessly amusing to read Leftists, very few of whom who have had the patriotism and courage to wear the uniform even in peacetime, let alone during wartime, whine about Bush's Guard service. Although I realize it isn't going to happen nonetheless IMO serving in the armed forces should be a mandatory requirement to have the franchise to vote. And I'm looking forward with favor to a return of conscription, but conscription with no exemption for college students.
Adam Moshe, You've your head in the sand. The back-stabbing ninny posed proudly for a widely distributed anti-war pro-Communist photo of him sitting beneath a North Viet Communist flag. To date I've encountered no Viet vet who supports Kerry's candidacy. If Kerry is counting on the veteran vote to put him in the White House, he'd best not count on his fellow Viet vets. I despise the jerk and wouldn't vote for him for so much as garbage collector. Brother Glenn Williams, Your assessment is, IMHO, right on the money, especially your point that nearly all chopper pilots, over 2, of whom were KIA in 'Nam and by far most company grade officers, with their nearly equally high casuality rate, were Caucasian.
In any event, I myself have encountered darned few G. Mosdt of them subscribe to the notion, "I wouldn't go through thst experience again for a million dollars; BUT I wouldn't have missed it for two million. But of course, there are bound to be some out there embittered by the experience I guess, but I just don't associate with such guys. This regardless a civilian doctor once suggested I'm subject to it. In any event, i reckon the proper response to the question posed by this essay's title is George S. Parron's remarks that he'd prefer to be the last man killed by the last bullet fired in a given war.
But then, he gloried in war. So did I, except when I was scared or bored numb. Then it wasn't much fun. How are we going to define 'racism' in this context? I am a retired Army officer, now working as an historian with an advanced degree in that field. I decided to go into history as a 'second career,' partly, because civilians do not share the same concepts of 'equal opportunity' or 'affirmative action' as does the military.
That is also the subject of a completely different discussion. I can tell you that services are always reviewing their demographic makeup, and 'representative index' as a way of monitoring potential instances of institutionalized racism. Currently, minority representation in the Army, and the rest of the military as a whole, exceeds that of the general population. In the Army, the 'distribution index' shows that non-minority first-term soldiers, however, have a percentage of concentration among the lower-ranks in combat arms units and career fields higher than would otherwise be expected, while first-term minority soldiers are distributed in greater proportion to their percentage of service-wide numbers in the lower ranks of combat service support branches.
As one goes up through the NCO ranks, the minority representation balances itself to a more 'expected' rates of distribution. This relates more to the motivation of potential applicants in the recruitment process, and propensity to re-enlist after completion of a first term, than institutional inequities, which we can discuss in more detail at another time. If we want to talk about who carried which share of the burden in Vietnam, we can do that now. The proportion of minorities within the military was greater than that of the general population. Despite the claims of the 'anti-war' movement during that conflict, and their apologists, this means that of those in the military, non-minorities suffered a greater representation among the casualties, and therefore, also among those doing the fighting.
These numbers are available from a number of sources, including on-line. He researched the demographic breakdown of all the Vietnam-deployed units of the armed forces and casualties, and also found that those fighting, and being killed and wounded, were representative of their group's proportion to the general population, not their representation from within the armed forces. Furthermore, he found that those who paid the highest price, proportionally, were Caucasian college graduates from middle-class families! Some former war protesters did not believe this, but then, they would not stop to think of who the rifle company commanders and platoon leaders, artillery forward observers, forward air controllers, tactical air support, and attack, assault and medevac helicopter pilots were by the way they read the numbers.
Respectfully, Glenn Williams. Kevin Gannon, Is it racism when cliques are composed seemingly based largely on racve among the troops? Indeed, as I recall, it was roughly during that time-frame that Colin Powell commanded a battalion of the 1st Division in 'Nam. Moreover, when posted to Germany, to a Pershing missile battalion, between my tours in 'Nam both the X. But in 'Nam only a smallish number of the troops, in contrast to some opinion, were either Colored or Hispanic. According to figures in the March, edition of "VFW" magazine " The situations and qualifications are different, you know.
Are you familiar with the structure of the US Armed Forces during the time period in question? Do you know where the F aircraft fit inside that structure? Pershing 's " Order of The Day " on the following day specifically mentioned Gunther as the last American killed in the war. Several years later, a post, number of the Veterans of Foreign Wars in east Baltimore was named after him.
Gunther's remains were returned to the United States in after being exhumed from a military cemetery in France, and buried at the Most Holy Redeemer Cemetery in Baltimore. By not declaring a truce even between the signing of the documents for the Armistice and its entry into force, "at the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month", about 11, additional men were wounded or killed — far more than usual, according to the military statistics.
It is being adapted into an English language film titled 10h59 , scheduled to begin shooting in with a budget of 12 million euros. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Henry Nicholas Gunther. Most Holy Redeemer Cemetery, Baltimore. This article may be expanded with text translated from the corresponding article in German. October Click [show] for important translation instructions. View a machine-translated version of the German article. Machine translation like Deepl or Google Translate is a useful starting point for translations, but translators must revise errors as necessary and confirm that the translation is accurate, rather than simply copy-pasting machine-translated text into the English Wikipedia.
Do not translate text that appears unreliable or low-quality. If possible, verify the text with references provided in the foreign-language article. You must provide copyright attribution in the edit summary accompanying your translation by providing an interlanguage link to the source of your translation. A model attribution edit summary using German : Content in this edit is translated from the existing German Wikipedia article at [[:de:Exact name of German article]]; see its history for attribution.
For more guidance, see Wikipedia:Translation. BBC News. Learning that the building was destined for demolition four years ago, the group set about trying to save it. In the elegant ground floor Cafe Eigler a permanent exhibition is dedicated to The Last Man series and other Capa pictures which tell the story of 18 April. Hoffman, 48, a Leipzig political cabaret artist and one of the founding members of the Capa Haus initiative, grew up with the many wartime stories of his parents and grandparents.
He discovered the Last Man to Die images in a banned underground magazine at the age of The place he found — Jahnallee 61 — was on a busy crossroads in the west of the city.
American soldier killed by German snipers in Leipzig, 1945
But, surprisingly, unlike the rest of the building, it was largely intact — apart from the fact that its balcony, close to collapse, had been removed years before — and it still had the commanding, unobstructed view of the Zeppelin Bridge. With weeks to go before the wrecking ball was due to knock it down, the initiative contacted US war veterans involved in the battle for Leipzig. Bowman, the fifth of seven children, had been sent to Europe with Company D of the 23rd Infantry Regiment of the 2nd Infantry Division. He was taking it in turns with his fellow gunner, Lehman Riggs, 24, to operate the.
Riggs had just stepped back inside the apartment and was reloading the gun as the fatal bullet struck. The grandfather clock behind which Riggs took shelter showed — in brighter exposures of the photographs — that Bowman died at 3.